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    Your thoughts?

    Rizwan Ayub

      Hi everyone...how important and beneficial is vendor specific training? i mean the learning graph as compared to old school CCIE's (who studied and understood everything themselves or had experince)?? i am starting to feel that now a days the pass ratio is much more higher but the knowledge ratio between an old ccie vs. new ccie is parted by same. Where's the gap coming from?? I want to be good and work as an expert not as a configuration guy .

        • 1. Re: Your thoughts?

          I guess people can see the respect, value of education and money by being more highly skilled & certified. Like any profession that has a pinnacle Cisco has theirs - the CCIE.In my view every Cisco engineer should have the desire to pass and become a CCIE, of course that ethos is not for everyone.


          Of course the older CCIE’s are most knowledgeable – they have more years served. But that does not mean that the CCIE’s that are in numbers 20000 and up are any less skilled that those whose numbers are under 10000. What is boils down to is the person  -



          • 2. Re: Your thoughts?

            Hi Rizwan


            I think this debate revolves around generalist and specialist. In the old days there was not structured education. You simply learnt what was necessary for your job and that often involved working on the leading edge technology. Training was normally one course. Vendors realised this was a source of revenue and started to drag out the courses creating multiple courses or by removing sections into different courses. This required them to fill in the missing time so they added in more detail. So when you meet a young CCIE that know absolutely everything about one subject area and you must respect that knowledge. These are the specialists.  The generalist are often regarded as lacking depth of knowledge but their breath of knowledge is often very wide. So they will understand the telco technology, how thoses services are delivered and priced. They will understand all the Cisco and others vendors technologies and how to blend them together. They will understand how to programme computers, electricity and HVAC, finance, law and different languages. They will be trainers and an interface between IT and the business. To aquire those skills will take years of a wide range of experience.


            So a young CCIE will know a significant amount about a subject area whereas an old CCIE will know which pieces are useful in the real world. We need both.


            Regards Conwyn

            • 3. Re: Your thoughts?
              DEEPAK ARORA

              I am pretty sure that Ver 4 Lab is much more complicated than earlier 2 day exam version. But all eventually it boils down to is how well you prepared for the lab exam. Experience makes difference but not necessary. Idea is if we are talking about quantity of exp or quality of exp.


              But you can't have feel of CCIE Lab exam without been there.


              Cisco asked lots of older CCIEs to go through CCIEv4 beta labs. And as far I remeber, none of them passed Beta lab. Anything else you have to say ?



              Deepak Arora


              • 4. Re: Your thoughts?

                Hi Deepak


                I think that is pretty insulting to the older CCIE. People spend a lot of time preparing for the CCIE so asking a working CCIE to take the beta without preparation is no suprise result. The CCIE R&S might be deeper now but the real world contains many things that are not in the the CCIE R&S.

                How many young CCIE know about DLSW. I still run it in production. Equally Cisco is bringing out new technology which is not examined. How many CCIE know the 3750X switches have C16 interfaces and the cable you need to connect to a UPS. Lets give credit to those youngster who pass CCIE at 18 but they are untested in a working environment and older CCIE have probably forgotten more than the young ones have learnt so far.


                Regards Conwyn

                • 5. Re: Your thoughts?

                  I disagree.  The older 2-day lab covered much more material than the new  CCIEv4 lab.  The older CCIE did not benefit from the training as we have now.  They read many technical books and had years of experience.


                  I would say that the older CCIE lab was very broad in scope compared to today's which is much more focused.  Hence the many different flavors, (R&S, SP, Voice, Security, Wireless, etc).  Back in the days of Terry Slattery (CCIE#1026) the first real CCIE, they had to "build" the network one day and then "fix it" the next.


                  Now the network is already built, we just have to configure the devices.  I am sure the older 1-day troubleshooting portion was much harder than today's 2-hour section.


                  I am sure we could argue all day long, but in the end, I respect all who have achieved the CCIE.  Both young and old.  It is not and easy exam, but it is achievable.


                  Just my 2-cents.




                  • 6. Re: Your thoughts?
                    DEEPAK ARORA

                    I am not here to insult anyone, Specially when I learned lots of things from old CCIE People like Scott Morris & Brian Dennis.


                    Now talking about coverage and depth of material, perhaps you should determine the old blueprint depth & length Vs current V4. Even there is an old say from OLD CCIEs that the longer you take to attempt the exam, tougher the exam is going to get since blueprint now gets changed more frequently compare to old days. Also take example of v3 to v4 change and determine how many topics were added Vs removed.


                    Now building a network in a single day and troubleshooting the next day doesn't sound a big thing to me. Specially when you have combined all different pieces on the first day by your own , right from start, how big deal is going to be to troubleshoot it next day ? You know how things were working already a day earlier.


                    Where as in v4, there is this huge 30 routers network and you don't know how the overall big design is working. But you got to troubleshoot it still and average time to resolve a trouble ticket is 10 - 12 mins approx


                    Now coming to how much new CCIEs know vs older ones, old day technologies like X.25, FR , PPP are still around, but who cares. Doesn't matter someone is a CCIE or not , they have to learn things as situation demands.


                    Now I am not sure how you guys relate to CCIE with Job. IMHO, CCIE still doesn't mean you are an expert. There is a bunch of stuff still out there which no CCIE blueprint is covering and we deal with it everday... you need example ?... pick 6500


                    For me, CCIE gives me more variety and sense and thats pretty much it. But in the end of day still its your common sense while you are troubleshooting a network issue which most of the times doesn't have any text book or workbook answers. Because if those were, we won't need Cisco TAC anymore.


                    Also in today's world, situtations are much different. If you can solve a complex technical case doesn't mean you are a good engineer. Every comapny is now a days ITIL follower and you need to know your boundaries about when you should stop troubleshooting anything and escalate it to next level. Does even CCIE talk about such practical things ?


                    And if those old CCIEs were really mambo jumbos and having lots of exp behind, why no one passed Beta Labs ?... Give me some good and practical reasons since you are saying that they have more exp and knowledge.


                    In the end, My sincere apologies to any older CCIE if my comments hurt their feelings. I still hav fav like Scott, Narbik and Brian dennis but of course thats my own list and don't care much about others and how they are doing. When I am in the field, I am by my own to survive there and it's my CCIE prep which helps me there.



                    Deepak Arora


                    • 7. Re: Your thoughts?

                      I'd say it depends on your own personal circumstances, for instance, if you're working within an environment with specific vendor equipment, it could make sense. Other than that I'd say you'd probably be gambling, unless of course your pursuit was just a self fulfillment.  

                      • 8. Re: Your thoughts?

                        I think the market dictates the importance.  I know of no other vendor neutral Networking certification that comes anywhere close to the prestige, respect and market demand that the CCIE has. 


                        Linux has the RHCE - which is the RedHat Certified Engineer certification - which has become the industry's premier Linux certification.  Yes, it's vendor specific - but nobody has stepped up and produced anything to rival it.


                        Other disciplines have well regarded vendor neutral exams, such as Security's CISSP and Certified Ethical Hacker, Wireless has the CWNP, you also have the PMP for project managers.


                        Often times a certification body cannot invest the amount of resources to certifying people in something, that a corporation can.  The corporations have a vested interest in making sure there are people that know how to use their gear, places like CompTia exist purely to certify people.  They probably cannot develop, produce, and maintain something like the CCIE lab that is vendor neutral, not cost effectively. 



                        As it stands, vendor specific certifications will continue to hold premier places in the networking realm, with the CCIE and JNCIE taking the top two spots.

                        • 9. Re: Your thoughts?
                          Rizwan Ayub

                          @Deepak...we know you are not here to insult anyone it's just that i think you can't compare a new CCIE with old one as they are pretty much learning new stuff from the time they did their CCIE. I know for a fact that lot of CCIE's have passed written by dumps and just gone through work books for some months and got there number, and believe me their knowledge is no more than a CCNP (or may be less). I totally agree it's one of the premier certifications but it has tendency to get opposite. The charm of CCIE was not because it's CCIE but there were less people certified, if cisco wants a target number of CCIE's in a year like John Chambers wished he want atleast 50,000 CCIE's in 2011...it will start to compromise the quality for sure!! All i wanted to say was i feel now in mid of my studies that a person need to have more memorization skill's than knowledge...It all boils down to how much commands you know rather than how will you design a specific thing...don't get me wrong but questions like how will you filter this by not using this is not what i meant, but in a specific situtation/network what will you use is a good question for engineers. I have only 4 years experince as a consultant but i have seen design+configuration skills get you to be a nice engineer else you will start hiring external consultants even though you are cisco certified. For example i am pretty sure the people you mentioned like Scott or brian or Keith Barkar (or anyone else for that matter) why do you think they are different from other CCIE's?? I think they not only memorized but understood the things really well...Now you have potential CCIE's who have never seen a real hardware in life and pass the lab (GNS3). When i see this gap or difference i really wish i could know from them that how did they studied for CCIE when they didn't had any workbooks and all...how did they troubleshooted a network when it was a complete one day...I know that Scott morris studied for 6 or 7 months for his first written, and i highly doubt most of guys now study from 3 books and sit for written!! One thing i don't understand is why all the guys maintaining their blog say that CCIE Written is just a hurdle and pass it quickly for the real thing LAB?? Why do you encourge people to pass it quickly?? They should take time with the theory...and how do you expect to be a good CCIE without good knowledge??? I am pretty sure no one will be asked to configure a Technology in an interview but rather will be asked theoratical questions! Some people get CCIE in 6 months, and all the records like most CCIE's in a year, or youngest CCIE or fastest CCIE are set now adays why?? Is it a race or something?? or you think old one were that dumb?? NO!! but there is a gap which has to be filled...The more you get ease in studies the more it losses it's charm. I guess now the safe bet is to acquire a university degree along CCIE for a safe future . I am not saying new CCIE's are bad, but i am just comparing them with old one's.

                          • 10. Re: Your thoughts?

                            CCIE tests nothing more than your ability to configure and troubleshoot complex network topologies and their associated advanced configurations.  It is NOT a design certification - that is why the CCDE was brought to life - as many CCIEs had moved on to design. 


                            Need to stick with comparing apples to apples....back in the day when all you had was the CCIE, that was the bar. Now there are other ways to qualify your skillsets in a certification if you design networks. 


                            With that said, I've done quite a bit of design work as a CCNP - you don't need a CCIE to do that.  Design is a totally different mindset than configuration and implementation, and some folks aren't able to bridge that gap, no matter what kind of super wizard they are at the CLI.  C'est la vie. 

                            • 11. Re: Your thoughts?

                              Hi Everybody


                              I suppose the question is what is a CCIE. Is it a six month preparation for a lab and then a written test every two years. Alternatively it could be viewed as job to feed the family. For those incredible gifted people who pass the exam at 18 I wonder what they will be doing in 40 years time. I hope using their great intellect to solve global warming rather than laying cables.


                              Regards Conwyn

                              • 12. Re: Your thoughts?

                                Not sure I'd hand the responsibility of a global warming solution to a CCIE, even one that was energy conscious


                                • 13. Re: Your thoughts?
                                  DEEPAK ARORA

                                  Perhaps someone when claims to be youngest, they should post their official birth certificate copy


                                  As far I know, this guy is son of the owner of WINNET SYSTEMS.

                                  • 14. Re: Your thoughts?

                                    My father showed me how to fix my car - his father helped him get a CCIE!

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