Sidenotes for count and one reason, lack of study IOS: Don’t know if was discussed or not--one CCIE who was critical of the lack of CCIE offical numbers no longer blogs for Network World.
BRAD REESE --Such is the power of the dark side.
self fulfilling prophet
Cisco Considers IOS for Cert Self Study (may not happen?)
Only Cisco knows exactly...
Sadly CCIE Trainers are finding out the hard way that the numbers are affecting their bank accounts...
Maybe I'm wrong...
However, I just looked at RTP and all CCIE Lab dates are booked from here clear to like January 10th/11th...
Which means... either seats are filled...
Vacations for proctors are due or there are no need for proctors... (doubt that one)...
It's time for CCIE Lab changes again!
To be honest I could care less about the total head count... if there are less of them then when I am at that knowledge level and I am able to pass wonderful. The ego part is ... what I'm better, I know more... for me it will be I did it, SWEET. If John Chambers wants 50,000 CCIEs, "loan me the training" upon completion and employment I will more than gladly repay my debt with a high interest rate. With Books and gear - no employer behind me and limited hands on it makes it hard. I've wasted to much time crying over spilt milk... never let others hold you back or become down upon your self.
I have seen your replies, Scotts, IA... I have learned alot in reading those as well. It seems as if profit has taken the front seat. I want to be paid yes but I want to do something I enjoy. I'll keep knocking on door (employers) and keep putting my best foot forward until I'm off and running again.
Keeping my head up,
We do need more head count and this may sound like I am hallucinating. There are less boomers, less generation X/Y-ers and what is coming is much more populations of Generation I (Internet.) So it is just logical that we could see 50K CCIE's but perhaps it's delayed by 5 to 10 years?
After a positive outcome of elections, and if the IT hiring on the spot picks up like it was in the late 90’s (see above), most would welcome a fresh seeding of Cisco incentives for non-tech 10,000 employers (MIS jobs) and for volume partners including incentives to stimulate CCIE employer sponsored training. And for self-study a new multi-platform program a.ka. Come Back 2011 and free retakes.
This may be a stretch of an analogy for many, but here goes.
You cannot mass produce excellent, or expertise. You can churn out certificate holders all day long, but after 6 years in the enterprise networkig business, it's easy for me to spot a real CCIE or not. Yes - there are those that have the digits that shouldn't, ex they passed the lab after 6 attempts and can't explain why stuck in active impacts network convergence and how that is a bad thing, or why a particular QoS policy is not classifying traffic correctly.
And here comes the comparison, with the recent War on Terror - our special operations forces have seen a similar problem. They needed 5,000 extra tropps yesterday - yet everyone recognized one of the major reasons these troops were successful, was their extremely high quality training and pedigree process. So what is the solution? A slow ramp up of production. You can't force people to succeed, but you can up the number of candidates in hopes of seeing more graduates. Cisco should learn from this a bit......
Cisco can't force people to become CCIEs, and even if you pass the exam, while that should mean you're an Expert, Cisco can't afford less experienced people passing the exam to devalue the certification. It's a touchy balancing act, and Cisco needs to decide whether they want to profit off of their training offerings, or accept it as a justifiable business loss in hopes that their sales will benefit from more experts - which has been a traditional argument for sustaining a certified body of engineers to support your product.
I agree with your stretch, a CCIE must be cut from the right cloth and I believe with the new track does that--to thwart Paper CCIE if there was such a thing ever. What I was saying is to the point that as aggregate Internet users are exponentially increasing due to population growth, increased business reliance on Internet facing technologies, and ‘IPv6 Everything Internet’ the world simply needs more CCIE’s over the few years if given an expected uptick. Perhaps with an uptick we won’t get there as in general university doctorates are declining in US, South Africa, Japan, etc and of the recent Chambers interview saying Cisco needs1500 hires but 50% are overseas in partial due to penalty for repatriation of capital profits tax penalties and brain drain.
Better for those that get it though, (said with baited breath waiting for recent news from trenches from INE and IE regarding how they believe the current crop of students is doing.)
A CCIE is a person who has read certain knowledge sources and performed a series of exercises in a finite period of eight hours.
A workplace is not a CCIE lab. Generally projects last long periods and involve repetition. So if you know nothing about the subject then after a year you may know a great deal.
I think Cisco have created the CCIE myth to address two interesting areas. One is marketing so Cisco Partners can claim competence with their n CCIEs and two is the certification dream.
Now there are many really nice CCIEs such as Scott, Keith, Paul,......... but equally there are many nice non CCIEs such as yourself.
There is no point (except for a hobby) of becoming a CCIE if there are not the jobs requiring that specific skill set.
To be a CCIE requires significant time and very few company outside Cisco Partners want their staff learning skills which are not required today or in the near future.
About three weeks ago I went on the Fastlane CCIE Wireless Lab course and it was very good and Jerome Henry is an excellent teacher. Now do I want to be a CCIE Wireless? No but I am considering RFID for one of my warehouses so I have read the CCIE reading list and more, went on the lab course and may spend a year working on RFID. Will I know everything a CCIE knows again no. But I will know about the specific piece required to satisfy the business need of my company and that involves hundreds of millions of dollars.
So in summary the question for the trainee CCIE is what is their motivation?
One CCIE who I worked with many years ago advised that there was no defined path, learn and learn some more and keep learning and complete the written and then the lab. My personal choice back in 2000/2001 was to learn the foundations and build upon them, my motivation is knowledge. I truly enjoy it, admittedly I have allowed upper management at time to become side tracked and have been told that it will not help your here. Reflecting upon that I should have taken it in and stayed committed to do what I enjoy. I'm not doing it for wealth that's for sure with all of the money I have spent on gear, books, tests - I do it because I like it and would prefer for it to be my field of work (it will be too sooner or later).
My CCNA Vocie book arrived today and I am diving into it deeply, I am going to watch a few of the CITW WebEx presentations. If I had done this before I would now be employed... maybe in a few weeks with a lot of study and understanding I will be. Non-the-less, I enjoy it. I still need to complete my CCNA Wireless then to finish up my CCNP from 2003 with today's track (do-able) and I admire your looking into wireless for the company your employed with - it shows dedications and concern for the overall well being. I feel that if the company I am a part of is now doing it's best then they are not making (enough) money and in turn that may lead to me not making (laid off/fired) enough in turn.
I have spoken to a few very nice and helpful CCIE either via phone of in person and I have gone to a Cisco Office before to find out abut the lab gear and (confirmed they not in a meeting) they would not even come out and speak to me... conversing via the receptionist only... with all their medals on the wall one of them could not take five minutes to speak with me, I found that to be very disappointing and vowed that I would always make time for people. It takes all types to make up the world.
I agree with the approaching IPv6 and an IP Address for everything the need is looming for more people of in depth knowledge. It is just a matter of putting in the time, learning the skills, the reasons why, how differing technologies interact and hopefully being cut from the right cloth. Working for a Partner would be a dream as would be working for Cisco... in due time.
"Invest in people and the people you invest in will add value to your company ten fold."
By: JCB & surly others at some point in time.
Conwyn, that is awfully pragmatic of you, but there are other reasons to obtain a CCIE......
- Make yourself more marketable
- Career progression
- Personal challange
- Use as a training tool
You may not see a need for a CCIE outside of your company requiring, but it's a very sought after skillset in the US, especially in specific tech corridors, and tends to garnish higher wages and ensures job security(I've never met a homeless CCIE).
I believe this thread was based on the idea of CCIE numbers being stable and yet Cisco claiming many more would be needed and hence the 360 programme.
I think you have identified four interesting points.
- Make yourself more marketable
- Career progression
- Personal challange
- Use as a training tool
Making your self more marketable can be achieved in many ways besides CCIE. It could mean you acting in your own self interest and leaving the company, it could mean protecting yourself in a down turn or it could mean having greater control over your salary within the company.
Career progression. This is interesting because one day you will progress into administration and your CCIE becomes a paper exercise every two years.
Personal challenge. This is known as a hobby. Every IT worker needs one.
Use as a training tool. I totally agree attending the CCIE training programme or just doing it on your own is a great way to understand Ciso technology but it has to be relevant to your work requirement.
I know culturally the US is different to many countries and there are regions of technology and logically the market will determine the number of CCIE based on salary. If we create easy to use GUI and train people specially pass the written papers then are they equivalent to the old CCIE?
If we go back to that day in September 1993 .
Cisco Systems has inaugurated a program to identify individuals within its customer and partner organizations who can effectively diagnose and resolve the problems inherent in today's large and complex internetworks.
That seems a very different definition to today's CCIE who I would expect to design, budget, configure, implement and monitor.
Conwyn, the CCIE is merely one of many methods to accomplishing the four points I identified. I can speak for fact that, though, that there are companies in my area that REQUIRE one or more CCIEs for several of their senior positions, no matter how many years experience you have. To be clear, these are NOT VARs or Cisco Partners of any kind. Also, the US Government has DoD certification standards for their defense roles and if I want to bid on certain slots, I need the CCIE. It is as simple as that.
When you have 150 people applying for a job, and only 12 of them have active CCIEs, you've often just pushed yourself to the top of the pile from HR's perspective(and most hiring managers perspective).
I seem to get the impression you want to downplay the CCIE as merely an implementer/engineer certification, and maybe in your sector it is. However, in the US, as I've said - the culture about it is different. Does being a CCIE mean you're a god? Absolutely not, but you've walked the walk at least once, and being a CCIE brings a certain level of peer pressure to be better at your job. People turn to you and know you know your stuff about certain topics.
As far as you calling the CCIE a hobby, I quite honestly find that to be absurd. I could think of a dozen OTHER things I'd rather do than slave away at a desktop on my free time preparing for the lab. I have a family, I have hobbies, but the CCIE is a career progression tool, simple as that. There are places I would like to get to in my career in a finite amount of time and the CCIE is an enabler in that path. Another skillset in the toolbox.....
I get that you do not need the CCIE - I don't *need* a CCIE either. However, having one will indeed open up doors and make more opportunities available to me. I think this is true for a lot of people.
It all seems quite clear to me why the numbers are dropping and why Cisco took the totals off their website unless i am completely out touch:
I have worked all over different parts of the world the past 20 years and there are millions out of work in every country i go. With a family to support they have no spare money to even attempt their CCIE, even CCNP is not cheap to study for and especially so if you are out of work.
As for Cisco's CCIE totals not being shown, if i was CEO of Cisco and i noticed the totals dropping i would also take them off the website. If companies think there are not enough engineers with skills to build and maintain the Cisco equipment they are thinking of buying why would they buy it.
Might be a bit simplistic those 2 little statements but that is what i think.