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    CCIE Lab Security v5|| PASS+PASS+PASS = FAIL|| Re-view

    antoine

      Hi all,

       

      I have attempted for 2nd time the CCIE Security Lab v5.
      During my 2nd attempt, I believe that I did a great job in all the three sections:

       

      1) TSHOOT
      I was able to resolve and verify all the incidents.


      2) DIAG     
      I answered with confident to the majority of the questions. My feeling is that i got a 70% to this section.


      3)CONFIG 
      I configured & verified all the required tasks with one exception which i did not fully completed.
      There is no partial scoring to a question in the Lab so I consider this task incomplete.


      I was confident that this one task will not cost me...

       

      BUT

       

      I've got PASS/PASS/PASS,  FAIL.  I am very surprised and disappointed

       

      I went back to analyzing what I might have done wrong.
      Except of this task in the CONFIG section everything else was working as expected.

      I verified all the tasks in TSHOOT & CONFIG sections as instructed by the lab materials.

       

      Then I tried to calculate my Cutting Score which in my understanding needs to be 80% or higher in order to pass.

      Overall, my calculation starts from a cutting score of 91%.

      This is by assuming i missed 3% in DIAG section and 6% in CONFIG section from the TOTAL points.

       

      I am sure that I did a good job so I am wondering why there is such a difference in my results (cutting score < 80).

      Especially, because I was able to verify all the tasks that I completed !!
      The task that i did not complete equaled to 6% of the TOTAL lab points and there were no dependencies with other tasks.

       

      I started to consider a re-view. I was a bit scared considering the very low chance of actually getting the results changed.

      According to my research on the Internet is 0.3%. How accurate is this? I hope is not

       

      But then I said, there is always hope...
      I do believe in the transparency and validity of the correction system, but sometimes systems do make mistakes.

       

      Hence, I have requested a re-view and i would like to know how long it will take?

      In addition, does anyone know what sections of the lab (TSHOOT/DIAG/CONFIG) are being re-viewed ?


      In my understanding, there is only a re-view option and not a re-read option for the Security Track.

      Thanks for any help and advise,

        • 1. Re: CCIE Lab Security v5|| PASS+PASS+PASS = FAIL|| Re-view
          Daniel Dib CCIE #37149 CCDE #20160011

          It's very rare that the results changes but it does happen. I personally know at least one person that passed through a regrade on the RS exam. However they often had quite bad results before the regrade because something in the grading failed.

           

          I would expect an answer within a couple of weeks but there is probably no definite time limit.

           

          I'm not sure what's the process for a review. Sometimes one feels a lot better about the lab than the actual results. This could be from breaking restrictions etc. However don't know if that is the case here. Good luck!

          • 2. Re: CCIE Lab Security v5|| PASS+PASS+PASS = FAIL|| Re-view
            arteq

            that pass/pass/pass situation never made sense to me, even after reading bruno's explanation... good luck...

            • 3. Re: CCIE Lab Security v5|| PASS+PASS+PASS = FAIL|| Re-view
              antoine

              Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated.

               

              To me the pass/pass/pass/fail situation makes sense only if you have scored just over the minimum in each section.

               

              Is logical if you just pass the minimum in each section, the Total Cut Score to be low, hence failing the Lab.
              But in my case, I did almost perfect in 2 out of 3 sections.

               

              According to Bruno's post (PASS + PASS + PASS = FAIL !? ) the cutting score for CCIE R&S is 75.
              What is the Total Cutting Score for CCIE Security? Is it 75 or 80 or 85 ? Where I can find this information?


              According to my calculation my Total Cutting score was supposed to be 90-91.
              I am saying that because I was able to verify all the tasks in TS & CFG except of the one task I mentioned earlier in the CFG part.
              But it appears that my cutting score is less than 80 or even less than 75 !! Depends what is the cutting score for the Security Track.

               

              The worst part is that the pass/pass/pass/fail situation does not give any value to the candidate.

              What am I suppose to study more in order to pass the next time?
              I have no clue if I failed because of lack of knowledge in VPNs / ASAs / ISE etc

               

              Also, in my opinion, is crucial for the candidate to know what parts of the lab exam are being re-viewed.
              According to the policy :
              "A Review involves having a second proctor verify your answers and any applicable system-generated debug data saved from your exam".

              What answers? From all the 3 sections or only the CFG section?  And what are the "system-generated debug data" ?

               

              Thanks in advance and apologies for the long messages

              • 4. Re: CCIE Lab Security v5|| PASS+PASS+PASS = FAIL|| Re-view
                arteq

                i think it would be more productive (and generous) if they would give a less vague, more specific review of the test result...

                • 5. Re: CCIE Lab Security v5|| PASS+PASS+PASS = FAIL|| Re-view
                  antoine

                  Daniel Dib CCIE #37149 CCDE #20160011 wrote:

                   

                  It's very rare that the results changes but it does happen. I personally know at least one person that passed through a regrade on the RS exam. However they often had quite bad results before the regrade because something in the grading failed.

                   

                  I would expect an answer within a couple of weeks but there is probably no definite time limit.

                   

                  I'm not sure what's the process for a review. Sometimes one feels a lot better about the lab than the actual results. This could be from breaking restrictions etc. However don't know if that is the case here. Good luck


                  Hello Daniel,


                  Thanks for your response.


                  Do you know where I can find the Cutting Score for the CCIE Security Lab?


                  According do Bruno's post back in 2015 for R&Sv5 :


                  "As a general rule, candidates will have to obtain between 40-60% of the points for each of the three modules to reach the minimum score, and obtain between 60-80% of the points to meet the overall lab cut-score."


                  In my opinion, in the scenario of pass/pass/pass/fail, candidates should be given the Cutting Score that they achieved.

                  At the moment, if we assume that the cutting score is 80, then as I candidate I don't know if i scored 79 or 78 or even less than 70 ...


                  Do you know if there is any other Cisco department except of this community where I can ask those questions?

                  Thanks

                  • 6. Re: CCIE Lab Security v5|| PASS+PASS+PASS = FAIL|| Re-view
                    Daniel Dib CCIE #37149 CCDE #20160011

                    Hi Antoine,

                     

                    I don't think there is an official cut score, at least not one that can be communicated. The cut score may not be exactly the same for all exams. There's a lot more to an exam than just applying the same score to all exams as they might have a varying degree of difficulty etc.

                     

                    The problem with taking the lab is that it's not designed to help you learn. It's a test. It's pass or fail. Yes, you will get some hints where you are stronger or weaker but they can't give you a good breakdown of what was incorrect.

                    • 7. Re: CCIE Lab Security v5|| PASS+PASS+PASS = FAIL|| Re-view
                      antoine

                      Hi Daniel,


                      I totally understand your point in regards to pass or fail. Also, I do get that this is a test and as the name state, is an Expert level test.

                      In my case, I "failed" the test. But according to Bruno's clarification in regards to Cutting score, the candidate should obtain between 60-80% of the points to meet the overall lab cut-score.


                      I am not asking for a specific cutting score number. I am just asking a cut-score range for the CCIE Security lab.

                      Because, if the same 60-80% range applies to the CCIE Security track then I am doing something completely wrong !!

                      I cannot believe that I scored less than 60% of the overall points...

                      Thanks

                      • 8. Re: CCIE Lab Security v5|| PASS+PASS+PASS = FAIL|| Re-view
                        Daniel Dib CCIE #37149 CCDE #20160011

                        I don't know the exact numbers but previously in for example the RS track, the cut score was around 80% for both TS and Config. The TS section had, if I remember correctly, 2 tickets worth 3p and 8 tickets worth 2p, for a total of 22 points. If you missed the 2x 3-point questions you ended up with only 72% correct and a fail. Which was pretty harsh. So in version 5 of RS they changed it so that you could be a bit weaker in one section and still pass the overall cut score if you made up for it in another section. However, it's not acceptable to totally flunk a section even if you ace another, which is why there is a cut score per section.

                         

                        This means that getting a PASS for a section doesn't mean that you did well on that section. It means you were above 60% or whatever the cut score is. The overall cut score is still around 80% though. So let's say you had a score of 75% in TS, 78% in diagnostics. That might mean that you need 84% in Config. I'm just playing with numbers here but you get the point. So a PASS/PASS/PASS = FAIL does not mean you were below 60% in total. You could have been at 78% and maybe you needed 80%

                        • 9. Re: CCIE Lab Security v5|| PASS+PASS+PASS = FAIL|| Re-view
                          antoine

                          Hi Daniel,

                           

                          Your analysis is logical but very basic and does not include the factor of Cutting Score per section.

                           

                          That leads us to the ultimately question: Is the Cutting score a specific number or a variable range?

                          Because, from Bruno's analysis the cutting score for R&S v5 is 60-80% of total points ... Hence, is a range.

                          But, he presented 3 examples with cutting score 75.
                          So, taking as an example Bruno's analysis the cut score is always 75.


                          • In the PASS/FAIL/PASS   ||FAIL     scenario - the Cutting score is 75
                          • In the PASS/PASS/PASS ||PASS   scenario - the Cutting score is 75
                          • In the PASS/PASS/PASS ||FAIL     scenario - the Cutting score is 75 AND
                            the scores in each section is JUST above the min scores. Hence, is a fail.

                                  This is the only scenario in my understanding that the PASS/PASS/PASS/FAIL makes sense.


                          If you have done, perfect to one section, scored the minimum to the second one, and almost perfect on the third section,

                          you shouldn't have the PASS/PASS/PASS ||FAIL scenario.

                           

                          Thanks

                          • 10. Re: CCIE Lab Security v5|| PASS+PASS+PASS = FAIL|| Re-view
                            Daniel Dib CCIE #37149 CCDE #20160011

                            Hi,

                             

                            That's not what I said. Rereading Bruno's post it seems the minimum score per section is 40-60% so having a PASS/PASS/PASS/FAIL scenario means one had at least 40% in each section. The overall cut score is 60-80% So considering the minimum score is pretty low, it's not that difficult, relatively speaking, to get a pass in each section. However, it's more difficult to make the total cut score. It's actually quite common to get a PASS/PASS/PASS/FAIL.


                            Bruno mentioned this in the comments:

                             

                            "Different candidates will be assigned with a different combination of individual forms of TS + DIAG + CFG and therefore may have different min-score and total cut-score...Again, this accounts for the different ratings of each forms and ensures that the overall exam is equated and fair for all candidates. "

                             

                            So the total cut score will be different depending on the exam form, meaning what lab you had. So what this means is that either the grading had a problem or your total score was somewhere around 59-79% depending on which form you got.

                             

                            I've experienced myself where my feeling does not align with the grading. Sometimes this can be due to lack of verification, misreading something or breaking a constraint. There are examples where one can have full connectivity but gathered almost none of the points.

                             

                            I don't know what happened here, just demonstrating different possibilities.

                            • 11. Re: CCIE Lab Security v5|| PASS+PASS+PASS = FAIL|| Re-view
                              antoine

                              Hi Daniel,

                               

                              First of all, thank you for spending the time to discuss this with me. Much appreciated

                               

                              I am now starting to realize better that the Overall Cutting score is a variable score depending of the different combination ("difficulty", difficulty in " " because is objective) of the three modules (TS/DIAG/CFG).


                              For example,

                              Combination#1 of individual forms of TS/DIAG/CFG can have Overall Cutting score 70  (assumed HIGHEST  difficulty)

                              Combination#2 of individual forms of TS/DIAG/CFG can have Overall Cutting score 75  (assumed AVERAGE difficulty)

                              Combination#3 of individual forms of TS/DIAG/CFG can have Overall Cutting score 80  (assumed LOWEST  difficulty)

                               

                              That makes sense! Btw the Overall Cutting scores are just theoretical.

                               

                              As you said, me or someone else might have scored 79 as an Overall Cutting Score, which is a relatively high score.

                              But this high score, is not enough to pass the exam in case of Combination#3.


                              I believe that this is the solution of the Overall Cutting Score mystery!

                              In my case, I am confident that i scored 100% in TS, 70% in DIAG and at least 80% in CFG of the points in respective modules.This makes and Overall Cutting score higher than 80.

                              That's why I was surprised with the result of  PASS/PASS/PASS/ FAIL.

                               

                              I do hope for a problem in the grading system

                              Fingers crossed

                              • 12. Re: CCIE Lab Security v5|| PASS+PASS+PASS = FAIL|| Re-view
                                Daniel Dib CCIE #37149 CCDE #20160011

                                Good luck! Hoping for the best. I know how frustrating it is to both wait and when the result is not the expected one.

                                 

                                I hope you get your number!

                                • 13. Re: CCIE Lab Security v5|| PASS+PASS+PASS = FAIL|| Re-view
                                  Rigo - Community Moderator

                                  Hi A,

                                   

                                  I'm very sorry to hear that your second attempt at the lab exam was not successful. Unfortunately, the details and overall cut-score are not published / disclosed. However, I would recommend taking a look at the "Passing Criteria" section in the CCIE Security Lab exam page for some general information. If you have any specific questions or concerns, you might also consider opening a case with and request an escalation to a CCIE expert.

                                   

                                  All the best!

                                   

                                  Cheers,

                                  Rigo

                                  Cisco Learning Network Moderator

                                  • 14. Re: CCIE Lab Security v5|| PASS+PASS+PASS = FAIL|| Re-view
                                    antoine

                                    Hello Rigo,


                                    Thanks much for your reply. Before I attend to the lab I studied this page multiple times!
                                    But unfortunately, this page does not clarify anything, is just a simple description...

                                     

                                    Passing Criteria

                                    "To pass the lab exam, the candidate must meet these two conditions:

                                    1. The total sum of all modules must equal at least the minimum overall cut-score.
                                    2. The sum for each individual module must equal at least the minimum cut score for the module.


                                    The reason for these criteria is to prevent the candidate from passing the lab exam while failing or even bypassing a module,

                                    for example, the Diagnostic module."


                                    In my case, I did not fail or bypass any module. On the other hand, I believe that I did very well in all the modules, especially

                                    because I was able to configure and verify all the tasks in the TS and CFG sections.


                                    So it's quite logical as a candidate to ask myself:

                                    1. What is the minimum overall cut-score of the total sum of all modules?  (condition that I did not meet)
                                    2. What is the minimum cut score for each individual module?                  (condition that I did meet)


                                    Anyway, I will not push this further, there is no point.
                                    I will stick to your comment "the details and overall cut-score are not published / disclosed
                                    ".

                                     

                                    I have only one more question in regards to the Review process.


                                    Reevaluation of Lab Results

                                    "A Review involves having a second proctor verify your answers and any applicable system-generated debug data saved from your exam. Reviews are available for all other tracks."

                                    1. Does the proctor verify the answers from all the modules (TS/DIAG/CFG)?

                                     

                                    I hope this information can be published / disclosed.

                                    Thanks much,

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